posted February 05, 2003 06:39 AM            

I'm taking a broad approach here. The comments I'm reacting to are specifically about No Man's Land and other Batman trades, but I'm not talking about these specific collections.

Story structure is closely related to format. For example, I believe that both Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn were commissioned as serials for a magazine. As I recall, these books contain many short chapters long chapters wouldn't fit in the alloted space in the original magazine.

Now let's say that the floppies die today.

Is there a place for the Steven Seagle/John K. Snyder Green Lantern one-shot? Or the Secret Files & Origins books? Or Paul Dini's Jingle Belle (we've seen 1 or 2 original issues every Christmas, but could the market support a trade every Christmas?)?

What about the facsimiles? If there are a lot of thin collections like Green Arrow by Kirby, then I think the facsimiles survive. Otherwise, I think they die.

The breather stories that Bob is talking about wouldn't exist in a TPB-only world. They don't make sense in that format unless there is a strong connection (James Robinson's Times Past stories, Batman Black & White). Usually, there is no connection between the breather stories. In any case, these unconnected breather stories should probably be read in the order they originally appeared, not as a separate collection.

In a TPB only world, there are three kinds of TPBs: serials (like Time Magazine), monographs (like a novel), and monographs in a series (like the Star Trek novels). Based on the evidence I've seen, the serial, not the floppy, is dying. However, because the floppy only makes sense as a serial, the floppy is also in trouble.

So, in a TPB-only world you have three options:
1. Continue to write comics in the traditional way and release a trade serial: Detective Comics Vol. 1 , 2, etc.

2. Eliminate the breather stories and release a series of monographs, similar to the Starman and Sandman series.

3. Release unconnected or loosely connected monographs, such as most of the Batman original hardcovers.

posted February 05, 2003 02:27 PM            

For major characters like Batman and Superman, DC could easily release a new book every month. Batman already gets 2 or 3 96-128 page HC graphic novels each year. Making 9 novels and 3 short story collections each year is not out of the question.

As for things like "Secret Files and Origins", that's more for the continuity geeks, right? The world of the stand-alone novel and short story collection needs to jetison hard-core continuity. These books need to resemble their pulp forebears, like Doc Savage and The Avenger and James Bond and the like. Yes, there can be some progression form book to book, but you can't write a story based on a coloring mistake to the Joker's eyebrow two years ago. That kind of crap must cease. Each book needs to be written in such a way as to make it stand apart and alone. Just like real novels in a series tend to do. They should also be numbered, like the Hardy Boys and other such series, to give the new reader a definite starting point.

Maybe DC could start with a line of graphic novels that feature a rebooted universe, with each Book One featuring the latest origin. Six months later comes Book Two, etc. Do this for 3 or 4 years and slowly ramp up production on books like ramping down the comics. You'd have to start with Superman and Batman, and slowly add to the mix until after 5 years, this new Universe put out a new book every month (say 2 Supermans, 2 Batmans, 2 Wonder Womans, 1 GL, 1 Flash, 2 JLAs, 1 GA, 1 Hawkman each year).

posted February 05, 2003 04:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:

The breather stories that Bob is talking about wouldn't exist in a TPB-only world. They don't make sense in that format unless there is a strong connection (James Robinson's Times Past stories, Batman Black & White). Usually, there is no connection between the breather stories. In any case, these unconnected breather stories should probably be read in the order they originally appeared, not as a separate collection.

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The breather stories having no connection is no longer true. Thats why im so adamant they should be collected. Not only do they have strong connection to each other, but also to the arcs.

Greg rucka's entire 2001 run on batman had a central theme focusing on the developing batman/sasha relationship, as well as the eventual return of vesper, which was a lead in to murderer.

Ed Brubaker's/brian vaughn's entire late 2000-2001 run dealt with issues of batman's identity, who he is, thru his personas of mathes malone and his repressed memories of his parents, which returned thru the moxons.

posted February 05, 2003 06:53 PM            

There is absolutely nothing wrong with short story collections. I completely agree.

There also isn't a problem with collections containing breather stories, but there are two ways to collect them.

1. Collect every issue in sequence.
2. Collect the breather stories in a separate collection.

Let's talk about Starman. I'm not collecting the trades, but aren't the Times Past stories in separate volumes? If so, this isn't the order in which they originally appeared, in which case DC would be using model 2.

This works because there is a common theme among the Times Past stories. I think this method would always work with what I'm calling gigantic monographs (one big story divided into manageable parts). But this method wouldn't work so well with serials (a series of episodes that doesn't have an overall structure, like Flash or Green Lantern).

When I said that the breather stories were unconnected, I didn't mean that they were unconnected to the big stories. What I meant was that they are unconnected to each other. I wish I had a good example, but I don't read too many serials any more. Let's say you have a couple big stories (like No Man's Land and Fugitive, not like Starman or Sandman) with a couple of breathers. The breathers may be connected to the big stories, but the breathers from No Man's Land aren't related to the breathers from Fugitive. A breather in Mark Waid's run on Flash probably has no connection to a breather in Geoff John's run.
My point here is that these kinds of breathers don't work as a stand-alone collection; they have to be reprinted in sequence.

It's been a while since I've read the James Bond books, so I'm going to use Ross Macdonald's Lew Archer series as an example. These are loosely connected novels. Archer grows through the series; there is a progression that the reader can see, but the novels could be read in any order. This is the model that's being used in the Starman collections, since they are (I think) unnumbered. I'm not sure how well this reads out of order because the continuity is stronger in Starman than it is in the Lew Archer novels, but if the reading order was mandatory they would have numbered them.

What Bob G. is saying is that the bookstores want a series of monographs like the Lew Archer or James Bond books, not a series of numbered books that are intended to be read in a particular order. The breather stories that Bob is talking about work very well in the floppy format or in a numbered series of TPBs, but they don't work very well in a series of monographs unless they are all part of one gigantic story.

posted February 07, 2003 03:57 PM            

First of all, I don't think Bob G. said anything was impossible, just problematic.

Forget about TPBs. Let's just talk about the floppies.

I see three primary story structure in use today.

1. The big gigantic story divided into manageable parts. Examples include Sandman, Starman, 100 Bullets. I'm calling the completed story a monograph.

2. The serial. I'm not sure that there are any pure serials left, but not too long ago every super-hero comic was a serial. I think, but I'm not sure, that JSA is close to a pure serial (see below for alternatives)

3. The storyarc. One big story (4 issues minimum, 6 issues or more better) followed by the next big story. Again, I don't have any specific examples of pure storyarcs off the top of my head, but most comics are heading towards this structure.

I think most mainstream comics these days are a hybrid of 2 and 3. Storyarcs mixed in with breathers.

posted February 07, 2003 04:20 PM            

The same three primrary story structures exist.

1. The monograph. Any original graphic novel. It may be divided into manageble parts (chapters in a single graphic novel or volumes in a gigantic story like No Man's Land).

2. The serial. I can't think of any pure examples. Lone Wolf and Cub comes close. Maybe the Crossgen collections. Think Detective Comics Volume 1, 2, 3, etc.

3. The series of monographs (one complete storyarc followed by another). Think of the regular books NecessaryImpurity mentions: James Bond or Doc Savage. You should be able to read them in any order. Characters can grow, but the changes shouldn't be too radical.

posted February 07, 2003 05:21 PM            

Now here's the problem:
Comic companies are trying to attract new customers without alienating its loyal fan base. The way to attract bookstore customers is to avoid the serial format and focus on monographs and series of monographs. But as NecessaryImpurity says, in order to do this continuity dies and the loyal fan base is alienated.

I'm trying to explain a complex situation briefly and quickly, so I'll probably oversimplify and I might screw up.

In order to attract new readers, the TPB market cannot be dominated by serials. I suspect that in a TPB world, we will still have Action Comics and Detective Comics. Maybe we'll see a return of Adventure, World's Finest and All-Star. However, unnumbered monographs are what these new readers want according to all the evidence that I have seen. So we won't be seeing Batman: Gotham Knights Volume 1 or Power Company Volume 1.

If the floppy uses a pure storyarc structure, than this isn't a problem.

If the floppy is a gigantic monograph, then the breather stories will probably make a nice stand-alone collection. Again, no problem.

However, if the floppy is a hybrid between the serial and storyarc structures, you have a problem. What do you do with the breathers?

If you put them in chronolgical order, you dilute the package in the eyes of the bookstore customer or you turn it into a serial which doesn't interest the bookstore custormer.

A stand-alone collection works if the stories read well as a stand-alone collection. Times Past works. However, in a serial like Batman, the breathers were intended to be read in a certain order, so the stories don't work as well in a stand-alone.

Now let's say the breathers aren't collected at all. The people who buy the floppies don't care. The bookstore buyers don't know that anything's missing, so they don't care. Would the remaining buyers be enough to support a stand-alone?

I'm taking too much time writing this. Hopefully it made sense.

posted March 15, 2003 11:19 AM            

24 A stand-alone story, but one that I don't think makes any sense when collected, unless it's a prequel to Murderer?/Fugitive. It leaves questions hanging in the reader's mind that won't be answered by anything else in the collection.

25-26 Bruce Wayne: Murderer?. I think both issues should be collected in their entirety in a Murderer? tpb.

27 Another stand-alone story. It is not billed as a Murderer?/Fugitive story and in my opinion, adds nothing to a collection. However, it clearly takes place during this time. I don't think it makes sense as part of a collection unless it is collected in the order in which it was originally presented.

28 Fugitive part 7. Part 1 of a regular Gotham Knights story with an important Fugitive subplot. The subplot can and should be cut and pasted into a Fugitive collection. The rest of the story should not be collected with Fugitive. See next issue.

29 Part 2 of the story from 28. No Fugitive connection, not billed as part of the Fugitive storyline. Should be collected with 28 minus the Fugitive part. Could be part of a nice Gotham Knights collection.

30 Fugitive part 14. Part 1 of a crossover with Azrael. I don't read Azrael. I didn't like the story. When flipping through it just now, I don't see why this was billed as part of the Fugitive storyline. Maybe the Azrael story has an important clue that can't be extracted from the main story. This might read well in an Azrael collection. I guess it belongs in a Fugitive collection. It doesn't belong in a Gotham Knights collection.

31 Fugitive part 17. Belongs in a Fugitve collection.

32 A stand-alone story that could go anywhere.

If I'm in charge of collections, I wouldn't reprint 27, and I'd only reprint 24 if I had room at the beginning of a Fugitive collection.

I hope this explains my point about story structure that I brought up at the beginning of this thread.

posted March 16, 2003 02:01 PM               

Vertigo for a while has gotten along with near non-existent monhtly sales, but huge tpb sales, and they collect pretty much every issue of their series' that warrant collection.

posted March 16, 2003 02:48 PM            

Issue 24 leaves the reader dying to know why Bruce Wayne did what he did and what happens next. This can only be answered by Murderer?/Fugitive collections. I can't see collecting a story that leaves you hanging unless you collect it with the stories that provide the resolution.

Issue 27 has Superman in it. Superman's motivation makes no sense out of the context of the Murderer?/Fugitive storyline. However, the story itself doesn't add anything to the Murderer?/Fugitive storyline. 27 is still a good story, but it doesn't work as well when taken out of context.

If you are going to market a TPB as a stand-alone volume, I don't think these stories work.

You could reprint every in-continuity story from Batman, Detective, Gotham Knights, or whatever in one series of TPBs (Batman Vol. 1, 2, 3, etc.) However, this is just a bigger, more expensive serial.

Everything I've heard about the bookstore market tells me that these readers aren't looking for serials. They are looking for stand-alone TPBs. Or a multi-volume TPB collection that tells one big story.

posted March 16, 2003 02:57 PM            

You could publish a collection of short stories featuring individual crew members from Star Trek.

If these are true stand-alone stories, the collection works.

However, if the Spock story tells you what he was doing off screen in episode 23, the Picard story tells you what he was doing off screen in episode 5, and the 7of9 story tells you what she was doing off screen in episode 14, the collection doesn't work. In order to make sense of these stories, you need to be familiar with the original episodes.